Hear, hear. Also: first!

Must pick up this month's Esquire....I've heard about this article before. Hmm...

Ooh, I was CHEERING for Susan's post yesterday! I figured the attitude she espoused was probably fading even among us old-fashioned Southern girls, so I was realy glad to see at least one outpost of higher standards out there.

The average guy will do just enough to meet your minimum expectations; so until that special one comes along who *wants* to do more for you, it's up to you to keep the bar set high.

And Laurie your nails are like buttah! :)

Amen sister -- preach it!

I'm queer as a $3 bill but my brother is one of these boys and it's a damn shame.

nope - it's not just an LA thing. it's a man thing, because they are the same way here, up in the Great White North!

sweetie, it's not just LA...come visit san francisco sometime where 1/2 the men don't know how to ask you on a date & the other 1/2 are gay! i had to meet a nice guy from the midwest inorder to actually get asked out to a dinner where he had made of all things reservations! be still my heart!

The problem is not just the men...it's all the "girls" keeping the bar so low that guys do not have to step up. Good for you for raising the bar. There are still "a few good men" out there. For all you mothers out there raising sons...and you dads...take note! For all you moms and dads...especially dads raising daughters...treat them like you want them treated in their futures. They will only learn to expect what you teach them to expect. Good topic today!

um hello? I sent you an email link to a pic of one in a uniform. he is 33. and he is good. (That was for yesterday's) I totally agree- glad I am out of that loop. :)

whoa. have you met my current boyfriend?? because I think you might have dated him.

First date - double with friends to dinner. nice. hug at end. "I had fun. If you're free saturday, lets do dinner and or a movie." Was stunned. Thought "coolness - boy with manners and gumption to go after what he wants."

Then I show up at his house Saturday and completely submarine it - I suggest ordering pizza and staying in.

and you can imagine the rest. We DID actually meet for lunch one day - in public. With clothes on.

aaaany way - I feel your pain. At least you don't encourage it. And from now on, you should start all potential date-ees off with the quiz question "Do you know who Charles Mansen was?"

if they want hoops, give 'em hoops. Last I checked our moms called the hoops wedding rings, but that's just me.

I totally need to print out this post and hang it up on my wall. I'm not looking into dating quite yet (I got dumped by the fiance 3 weeks ago. 13 days until I move out. Oh, 13 days, go quickly), but damn, dating sucks.

Of course the "men" are not equipped to function in the world as they should....look at the low expectations that have been set for them by girls who call themselves "women" and some (NOT all) parents who gave and gave and catered to them and in the end taught them to be underachievers. Wow...that was one big run-on sentence! Argh! Grown-up dating sucks.

I hate dating. But perhaps I am really a socially inept male trapped in a female body. I have no problem just going for coffee in jeans and a t-shirt, but that's me. That's who I am every day. I like easy, cheap, no pressure dates, well except I don't actually like dates.

being only one little, fragile step away from the insanity that is dating (again) in one's thirties, here is what i have learned (though something like scientific experimentation): older is better, and if possible, i will only ever date men who have also been married before.

neither here nor there, but something, perhaps, to consider.

You mean a date isn't going over to someone's house on a beautiful Sunday afternoon only to find that you'll be watching karate dvds while he does his laundry?

Who knew?

I've given up. Frankly I'd rather shave my head with a cheese grater than date anymore.

My friends and I have determined that there are technically three types of grown males:
Men - they can ask you out on dates; they understand that things, all things, are best in moderation; they can be polite, funny, and even clean without worrying it may infringe on their "man-ness"; they are, in fact, generally lovely to spend time with and your mom would approve. They are, needless to say, few and far between... which brings me to:
Guys - these are the fantasy-football types; they say "woo" and "heh" and "hells yes, I'd like another shot" (promptly followed by: "woo! shots!"; you are not their priority, their priority may be their car, boat, X-box, or physique, but it's not you. They suck, and they're everywhere. And finally,
Boys - and clearly you know them all too well so I won't get into it.
I think it's fun to make these distictions, because then if you come home from a crappy date, you can say to your friend, "ugh... I'm never going out with him again, he's such a Guy!" etc...

I'm sure there must be some similar hierarchy for women as well, but since I know so few women I haven't bothered to determine what these categories would be. Possibly Faith can teach us all! ;)

And just so you know... I'm from the midwest so a man is not a thing just Southern Girls are after!

Your nails are splendid, and I'm a little jealous, cuz I'm about to head out into the crazy heat and play in the garden, and while my nails are fine right now, I'll check back with you in 1/2 an hour and they'll all be gone.

I don't know how you do it. I am so glad I have never had to be inthe adult workd of dating. I watch my friends go through it - it sucks. I don't knwo first hand - but it does not seem to be any better here inthe south.

I live in Seattle, which is exactly like L.A. except the standard for a little thing I like to call Personal Hygiene is much, much lower. (A code monkey that has not showered for six days--and has played World of Warcraft (Wow) for five of those six days--and eaten pizza with garlic sauce twice a day for all six days--NOT A PRETTY SIGHT.)

The point is, here in Seattle, a code monkey's idea of a date is to INCLUDE you in all of the above activities. Gag me with a microchip.

I'm now dating a very nice boy from Texas, and I might never look back. Look for boys from the South that have moved to L.A. because they wanted a more liberal lifestyle, and you will have FOUND YOUR MATCH! Good luck!

I agree with Janet 100%! When did it become ok to settle? Are women that desperate for male attention that "let's kick it sometime" is supposed to get their hearts all a-flutter? Come on ladies, we deserve better.

Laurie, good for you for having standards. A man with good manners and a sense of respect for this whole crazy coourtship thing is not too much to ask. And it's not just L.A., I moved from Southern CA to the South, and (this may shock you, being a Southern gal...brace yourself)the men here are EXACTLY THE SAME WAY as what you described in this post. Most of the guys I met wanted to take me out for pizza and beer, which was fine, until they remembered they had "accidentally" left their wallet at home. (It wasn't the money issue for me, it was the shady way they handled it, like I was too stupid to see right through it. It happened on two different occassions, two different guys!)

I was fortunate enough to meet a man with a tough Southern mama who raised both her boys to be considerate, well mannered, and willing to plan a date ahead of time. They are in short supply, but men like that, the ones raised with "old fashioned ideas" as some of my friends call them, ARE out there.

I'm right there with you! I work on a college campus, and I have seen that dating just doesn't exist anymore. Boy and Girl meet at Party, Hook Up, send each other a few cryptic text messages that Boy will likely read and ignore (assuming he can find his cell phone) and Girl will obsess about and make every other Girl she knows read and obsess over, and then either the whole thing ends, or they become a Couple. Until one of them is sick of being a Couple, and breaks up with the other one by - you guessed it - sending a text message. There is no dating, there is only drunken smooching and texting. It's sad, really. Oh, and to add on to Susan's dating rules, I made one of my own a long time ago - if a guy says he is going to call and doesn't call, even once, he's out. Buh-bye. I don't have time for that shit. (Unless of course he has a legitimate reason - and I mean legitimate - like bleeding out of both ears, or his house exploded. Well, even that one wouldn't count because he likely has a cell phone.

Girls got soft.
Guys got lazy.
Draw the line in the sand and accept no less (unless they are in a cute uniform and you go in with no preconceived notions of a relationship).

Why does this seem like a First Wives Club thing? Draw the line and accept no bull___t.

Oooh oooh oooh
You could start a CLUB! And make up business cards!
This could be F U N !!!

*applause*

Well said. Unfortunately, the "man-boy" is ubiquitous in La-La Land. And Orange County as well. Believe me, I grew up here. I know many of this species, who are still obsessed with their X-Box, or painting those geedee figurines for their next D&D game. And they wonder why they can't get dates, when they are such a "catch"???

Hang in there, girl. The good ones are out there, they are just really shy and difficult to find.

Here's a curve from Washington DC. You date the politico types out here and you make an appointment with them 2 weeks in advance, email the day before and then call and confirm a few hours before because until you call right before YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE A DATE. Seriously. All plans are soft until a few hours before a date.

And then when you get there you have to be conversational on the top 8 seats in contention for this election cycle, the candidates, and what that would do to the congressional power balance.

And to make it worse there are SO many more attractive women than decent men that you have to set the bar way low. Dig it a trench even. And there's the addition of a large gay community. I have a harem of 8. Collect them all.

May I make a request? Will you email this blog post to Esquire in response to that article, to counteract all the hate mail that THEY will be receiving? Because, my friend, you have hit the proverbial nail on its proverbial head. And now, I will go read that article in depth....

Hey - how are the square watermelons doing?

Oh goodness- I feel you.

And I have to say, its not just dating, but also relationships. Men just cannot commit anymore. Among my friends, three of us have been jilted by a long term boyfriend who "didn't believe in marriage," and two have had their fiances break off their engagement with them.... in fact of all my friends, the only normal one who is happily engaged, and getting ready to get married is my best friend.... who is gay (thus she doesn't deal with boys.)

I am no longer dating, in the interest of trying to finish off the PhD and get a real job. However, I find it so depressing- I would love to have a wonderful man in my life, but all I had for years are rotten tomatos that I have had to throw out once I realized the extent of the damage...

Oh yeah and stay away from the sensitive types. They are the ones with loads and loads of baggage. Loads. They usually have issues with their mommies. Sometimes even their daddies. Give me a nice car-fixing, big dog loving, man's man any day.

Where are all the good men?

Ah, all of the above and then some are the reasons that I just don't date! I don't hate men either but just cannot deal with all the "things" that go along with that activity called "dating."

Have you read the Sweet Potato Queens' Book of Love? Wherein the author says that we need a man to do the following things for us: We need a man who will talk to us, buy us stuff, fix things, dance with us, have sex with us, and, umm, I think that's all. Anyway, her theory is, no one man has all of these qualities. That might have the majority of them, but then, one critical one will be left out, and esp. the most critical one of all, in which said man would therefore be gay.

Just so you know, my man doesn't dance. Sad, but, then you can't have everything.

My point is, the dating thing is perhaps the same now. That the perfect dating man doesn't exist? I dunno, I'm married, and so sorry you're having to put up with these sad excuses for men (but which I do not mean in a smug married way. Just sorry for the general state of things.)

I had to date someone who on the surface looked like someone I should have run away from, but who was actually very decent and good husband material. I would never have known this unless I had gone out with him out of sheer morbid curiosity.

Also, we subscribe to Esquire at our house and when it comes, I hide in the bathroom with it so I can read it first. Best magazine ever.

First of all--hell yeah! to this post.

But really I just wanted to say that if you have not heard about what's going on over at www.yarnharlot.com, you should read the comments. Apparently every knitter on the continent wants to invite you over for dinner. You may never have to cook again!

Can we ask for good manners AND a job. Because all I'm finding here in Portland are men looking for sugar mamas. I mean, I couldn't figure out why the guy I met with on Sunday requested a particular out-of-the-way coffee shop.... turns out it was because it was next to the MAX line (our mass transit train) ... the dude ... who is FORTY-TWO ... does not own a car. (though the good news is that he has been able to hold down his current job for AN ENTIRE MONTH NOW! JESUS! Why can't I find a man who has his shit together?!!! It's not like I'm dating twenty year olds, ya know?!!)

Grrrrr.

When I was dating 'heavily', in my 30's and actively looking for 'long term', I wondered why these boys had been raised so poorly by their mothers and then I realized it was their FATHERS who were the poor roll models. In my 30's I was no longer willing to put in the training time ~ if they hadn't 'gotten it' by then, I moved on. It's sad that this is still the case, but my advise is: move on. DO NOT put in training time. It's an exercise in futility and they will revert once they're married, only to be roll models for the next generation of boys. Do NOT help perpetrate this. Wait it out until you find an adult. They are out there, I promise. It was 11 years between my practice husband and The Keeper; we've now been married 20 years. Love yourself, be happy single, stick to your goals (they are not unreasonable) and life will give you exactly what you desire. Hugs, Rebecca in Rainy Seattle ps: on a more personal note, if you lived in Seattle I would SO fix you up with my nephew!

NEW PUPPY PICS ARE UP!!!!!!!!!

Not crazy! Not alone!

When I reentered the dating pool a few years ago, I had the same problems. The men/boys were such a disaster, and I did insist on the niceties like properly asking for a date, holding doors, etc. I really mourn the loss of common manners and decorum in our society. Not only do I prefer men over boys, as you so eloquently put it, I prefer *gentlemen*.

Now that you've got me thinking on the topic...I've since remarried. But he's not an American. I went to the Mediterranean to find my gentleman.

P.S. In addition to the wine and real men, I'll send some bacon for Roy, too. ;-)

Boy you really struck a nerve here, didn't you?! Yesterday all we wanted to talk about was manicures and studly biker-cop boots!

I bet you get 300 comments by sundown. And the attention of Esquire magazine. :-)

I think it's the generation. My 28 year old brother (who lives in San Francisco, but was raised in LA) tells me about his dating misadventures and I just shake my head. I don't know how he got that way or what to do about it, but he's the kind of guy who would do everything Susan listed.

I cannot even imagine what these boys are thinking. And I say BOYS! Not men...men have manners and jobs and did I mention manners?

I love my husband and am so grateful his momma raised him right! Very soon I will be having my own little boy and you can bet he will be raised right too!

Oddly enough I had a friend named Susan who used to say, "Boys suck, but men are nice." And that was at the age of 16. I think she was on to something.

Hey, look who found the camera cord! Nice nails.

And, at age almost 34, I'm right there with ya on the dating thing.

It's men all over, girlies. In part, I blame my generation. We are the ones that raised those "boys" and the girls that accept their loutish behavior. (My own two sons are gentlemen. I know because everyone tells me, in awe.)

My own dating career ended with these two experiences: (1)I accepted a date for coffee and the genious took me to the 7-11, then protested when I got a bottle of water, thought it was too expensive. (2) I gave some other guy a chance to take me out, he took me to the corner store and got me a beer. BOTH wanted sex afterwards!!!

Lest these examples give you the wrong idea, I am not a skank or a street bum, I am an attorney, clean and I think still attractive.

haha! amen, sister. :) have some of those men sent to the bay area too. we are also in dire need 'round these parts...

I would like to offer a ray of hope for the future. I had a 26-year-old man (yes, man) living with me last year. It was strictly platonic as I am old enough to be his...Aunt? Anyway, I observed his interaction with girls and I can say this: All is not lost. Daren called early enough in the week, planned dates, opened doors, was polite and courteous, and never once included "hanging out" as a date. He not only knows who Charles Manson is, but knows music from the 50's and 60's, and he pays for things, insists on it actually. He has invited me to clubs to see friends' bands play and paid for my drinks and food and I'm not even a real date. Now, I have to say that he was raised in a large, close-knit family and his father is the Chief of Police in his hometown in Central California, so that may have something to do with it.

But if there's one, there has to be more out there somewhere.

Bonus: He's cute and a musician, and he would serenade me in the mornings while I was getting ready for work. Every girl needs one of those, right?

Rock on Laurie! We know you are not a man hater...anyone who sends hate mail really doesn't have a clue.
Hugs
Heidi

I could not agree MORE!!!! It's not just L.A.

I live in Detroit and I just started "getting out there" again and I am so disappointed in the scene. I recently went to a bar with some girlfriends and was appalled to see the "men" there doing nothing but taking pictures of the women dancing with their cell phones... Is this so they don't have to date and can just use the picture later? Disgusting.

When I was approached by a "man", within 5 mintues he was telling me how wonderful he'd be in bed... I'm never going out again.

Where have all the real men gone?

I think "E" falls under "I'm just not that into you...but if you call I'll sleep with you".

Opening doors, holding out a chair, picking up the tab, and general manners never go out of style and I don't understand people who don't get that.

However, there is nothing preventing YOU, my dear, from asking a guy out, isn't that what the empowering is all about? We should not have to wait for them to get off their collective asses. Besides, someone needs to show them how it's done, "old school". Word!

I don't think this trend towards laziness is endemic to LA, it's everywhere.

1)My nails are so jealous of yours, they're about to go on strike (eventhough I totally started moisturizing)
2)Having only begun dating in the 'aughts' I have heard rumors of gentlemen who actually pull out chairs and open doors and pay for dates...part of me would LOVE to play the demure lady in the scenario; but I have come to terms with my actual options and I don't really feel that it's settling due to the fact that I am not willing to (gulp) 'reduce myself' to the archaic standards set for women and won't be a hypoocrite completely. (helooooo run-on!)
My happy medium? - I only date men that have great relationships with their mothers, and will not consider a date if they wait any pre-determined amout of time before calling after receiving my number (personal pet peeve).
In this manner I found my (gentle) man: Calls all women "miss" rather than Ma'am so as not to offend anyone's age, yet maintain respect, and he
has no problem doing the dirty work around the house (like a dead rat yesterday, eeeeeew!)
He calls when he is supposed to (going to be late)and keeps his promises... I believe this comes from a genuine respect for women (see: relationship w/mom) and therefore the best basis to find a 21st century gentleman. It worked for me.

I too have encountered the phenomena you have described, and I agree with everything you have written. But I do know of 4 men who will actually ask a girl out on a date. And be polite. And pick up the tab. And bring flowers. Yes! So they do exist. However, they are all in their 40's and 50's. They all have their hair, and still have trim waistlines. And they all have a sense of humor, and a good job. But there is only one thing Purl. You'll have to move to the Baltimore area.

I agree 100%
So just who is the world's sexiest woman, anyway? Tell me it isn't Angelina Jolie!

No hate mail here, speak up! People don't like it, fuck em. They don't have to real your blog now do they?

My biggest man gripe is and always will be (married) the needy man. The waaaah spend time with me waaaahh you don't love me enough waaaaahhhh you can't go anywhere without me or my feelings will be hurt man.

I hate these men. Worst part is these men are wimps AND have all the above qualities.

If only we could all be lesbians.

As the mother of 4 sons, I'm printing this post and forcing them all to read it! By the way, the oldest is 25 and could really benefit from the attentions of a good woman. Anyone out there looking for a really nice guy, unambitious, loves comic books & video games, DJ's occasionally, lives in a shoebox size studio apt (omly 'cause we no longer allow him to live at home) and makes very little money? He's good with kids - would make a great house-husband--- No? I thought not....

The voice of experience here. I used to give Thursday at noon as my limit for a Saturday date; Wednesday, 9pm as my limit for a Friday date. That is, 2 days advance notice, please. I also found that it was really easy to meet guys if you're already in some sort of situation with them....like an extension course at UCLA; a wine-tasting seminar at a gourmet shop; a historical architecture tour, or some such activity. It has to be something YOU'RE really interested in. Don't go to the "How to Fix Your Car" workshop just to meet guys, unless you really want to learn how to fix your car.
Also, there was this book I remember reading in the 80's. Something like, "Rules for Dating." It worked for me! I've got my prize....Mr. Larry!
Good luck, Purlie...take your time. The good ones are out there!
Hugs!

I'm sorry! :P I was lucky enough to meet my husband in college. Before the advent of the cell phone *really* took off!

This meant that he asked me out w/ a group of people. We wound up spending most of the night exclusively together. We had fun. He asked me out on a *real* date. We did do some "hanging out" dates too, but we lived in the same building and, um... we were in college! I'm grateful to his parents. To this day he still opens my car door first if he's driving.

I went on one date where the guy "forgot" his wallet in the car his friend dropped him off in. Then he said he'd bought me a dozen roses and he'd just *happened* to leave them in the car too. (For a first date? Uh-huh.) He asked if I would pay for the movie. I acted surprised, and said that I hadn't really planned on paying for the movie so I didn't have that much cash on me. So we went for a short walk and I left. He offered to make me breakfast-- and I didn't want him to know where I lived!

OMG Lyn - your son could be my brother, except that he's 29 now and my parents have still (!) not thrown him out of the house!!!!!!!! Good for you!

Oh, they are pretty much the same here in Toronto too... You're no man-hater Auntie Purl, you just say it like it is, and well, that IS the way it is these days!

:)

(Except for Roy and Bob though...)

Love the nails!
You are not an antique at all, nor are you asking too much. Men are just simply spoiled little boys who have always had everything down to what pair of underwear to put on planned for them.
(can you tell I married a mama's boy)
They only get worse once they have dated you a while, and then marriage...so why shouldn't you at least get a few good dates before the bad stuff sets in?

Amen! You have very eliquantly put into words what I have been trying to tell my friends for YEARS!! I'm not single because I'm too picky - I'm single becasue I excpect a certain level of treatment that I'm not getting. How is wanting to be treated with some thought & curtisy being picky? Why does the need to have an actual conversation (instead of grunts and mumbles) make me hard to please?! You nailed it girl - I must e-mail this post to all my married friends who continue rag on me about my standards.

I'm the mother of two small boys, and I promise I'm taking extensive notes.

I don't think boyish hobbies are necessarily bad. I played D&D with my now-DH in college, and we both have fond memories of it. But I was genuinely interested in the game. And those sessions were not considered dates.

These days he plays WoW while I knit, and if he occasionally spends too much time in front of the computer instead of being a husband and father, I tell him so, and he apologizes and shuts off the blinking box. His mama did a good job. I must remember to tell her so.

In addition to teaching my boys to be dateable, I'll try to teach their female playmates to insist on respectful treatment. I think that might actually be harder. Freakin' women's self esteem issues. My own included.

Michelle's comment reminds me of watching poor Lisa Loeb's trials and tribulations on her reality show "#1 Single". What really amazed me was the guy she met at the dog party who took her to the zoo (good date location, btw - one point for him), but then, on a date with a celebrity, with cameras rolling, this idiot spent more time answering and talking on his cell phone than paying attention to her, (therefore, three strikes against him). LOSER!

Note to the idiot guys out there who actually want to improve their success with women: if you can't turn the phone off completely during the date, at least put the damn thing on vibrate and don't answer it unless it's work-related or an emergency! Making future plans with your buds while on a date with a girl does not qualify as an emergency!

Oh, they are pretty much the same here in Toronto too... You're no man-hater Auntie Purl, you just say it like it is, and well, that IS the way it is these days!

:)

(Except for Roy and Bob though...)

I didn't have time to read all the other comments, so I hope this isn't repeating... No, it is not just L.A. I was wondering if it was just CA, though. And I always thought I was old-fashioned too - being a shy girl, I often wonder where all the men went, as none ever actually approach me. So, there's 2 conclusions: I'm a freak and no one is attracted to me OR men are lazy and don't want to do the work of actually talking to women anymore. I like to think I'm really not a freak.

Oh and I have your translation for E: E: "Call me if you want to hang out sometime."
Translation: I do not want to have any responsibility on my shoulders, so I will make you decide if you want to try to know me, without me having to actually think about whether or not I really want to have a relationship with you. (This puts all the pressure on you, and none on him. My ex pulled this after dumping me.)

I have this saying: Ain't nothing more attractive on a man than good manners.

The post is wonderful. No hate mail from me.

Kay

"E: "Call me if you want to hang out sometime."
Translation: (I have no idea. See how bad I am at this dating thing?)"

Means: I’m too lazy to ask you out on a date but I do want to get laid, and if you call that means you want that too. See your translation of D for the next step AFTER you call when you want to hang out. UGH!

I am SO with you on this. I relocated here from NYC, and my last bf there asked me out in a pizza shop, and we went on actual dates and we stayed together for over a year...not saying he was the greatest, and obviously not the forever man, but he took me on actual dates. **sigh** I’ve all but given up on men out here. I feel like I need to go back east, or to the Midwest, to find a male person who is actually a Man.

And I too love men. There’s a Jill Scott song that spells out how (in my head) it should be: “...happily, excited, by your cologne, your hands, your smile, your intelligence, you woo me, you court me, you tease me, you please me, you school me, give me some things to think about...”

But this is LA, and the guys here don't understand the concept of manning up, they just wanna hook up or hang out. I actually had one tell me that I was from another time in space (the stone age) because I expressed the exact same thought about going back to the days when guys were on their best behaviour and nervous about the first kiss.

Maybe one day. Good luck with the dating CAP! I'm done. I'm turning 35 in 2 weeks and I'm just done. In the meantime I knit, I've recently taken up lace knitting. :)

You know, I just love you to bits CAP -- but if you want the status quo to change, YOU (I, WE) have to change it. What was that title the other day -- "Shoes don't stretch and men don't change." So why do you keep beating yourself on the head about what you consider to be "bad" dating behavior that. will. never. change?

Make a connection with a man you are attracted to, and then ask him out and treat him with the honesty and respect and integrity that you are saying you are missing from the male side of it all. Any rejection you encounter won't kill you, and you may find someone sweet and smart who is WORTHY OF YOU.

If you continue to subscribe to the old dogma, you will be getting those magazines piling up on your lonely, miserable porch forever.

You forgot about the guys trying to hit on a strange girl by telling her she has a nice ass/boobs and then standing there as though you should instantly whip your pants/shirt off and jump them then and there.

Yep. It's a sad state of affairs everywhere. Too many Mama's doing everything for Junior and giving him everything he wants regardless of his behaviour. They expect it from us when they get old enough to date.

I heretofore pledge to raise my boy better than the boys I had to date before I met my husband.
Of course it may be a little late for you Laurie since the boy is still only a twinkle in his Daddy's eye.

Two books:
Why Men Love Bitches
Why Men Marry Bitches

These books are not nearly as trite and obnoxious as they sound. Here, I will save you $30. There are two tenents of the Bitch theory:
1. People can only treat you as badly as you let them.
2. People value something they have to work for.

This means not settling for bad and/or lazy behavior and expecting promises to be kept. Unfortunately I think it is human nature to want to do as little work as possible for as much reward as possible. But, by the same token, someone who is seeking and opne for a real romantic relationship will not be lazy about it, you know what I mean?

Laurie,

If you feel like moving to Illinois, I can set you up with a nice Midwestern boy. He's served his country, gone to grad school, lived in Italy, and knows how & where to make a reservation. And when he comes to pick you up for said date, he'll not only bring YOU wildflowers (that he picked) but also your girlfriend who is helping you pick out what to wear.

Believe it or not, he's real--and having problems finding a woman who isn't the Los-Angeles-Slacker-Cave-Man-Female-Equivilent...

Fabulous post, btw... Whatever happened to all the good ol' Southern boys?

I've been reading your blog faithfully all year (LOVE it BTW!) but this post has finally spurred me to comment. All I have to say is Amen, Sister. I am not sure when this man/boy dilemna began, but I am fed up. Try moving cross country to be with assumed man, ring promised asap. Fast forward two years, assumed man has been confirmed a true boy-no ring, no respect, no dates. But lots of Xbox, Bud Light, and pizza crusts. I moved out 12 days ago and what a nice, clean, calm 12 days it has been. If boys are all I have to chose from at this point, I'll just stick with my two cats. And, BTW, the "boy" is 33...in years anyway.

My dear,I had 2 boys. They are now 32 and 35. My DILs love me you know why? I would have twisted their ears right off their heads if I heard they had pulled such crap. (no need to worry about DCFS any more and who is going to call 911 on your mom it would just make me pinch. I overheard the youngest ask a girl, "Hey want to grab a beer". He says he has a scar. I did not pay to get them out out grad school to act like they rode the short bus the entire time. Where are the mothers? And hon, remember this when in fact with your luck you wind up with triplets all boys born with hair on their chests. I need to open a school I would call it Let momma teach you a thing or two. Yes, I live down and sideways.

I've been reading your blog faithfully all year (LOVE it BTW!) but this post has finally spurred me to comment. All I have to say is Amen, Sister. I am not sure when this man/boy dilemma began, but I am fed up. Try moving cross country to be with assumed man, ring promised asap. Fast forward two years, assumed man has been confirmed a true boy-no ring, no respect, no dates. But lots of Xbox, Bud Light, and pizza crusts. I moved out 12 days ago and what a nice, clean, calm 12 days it has been. If boys are all I have to choose from at this point, I'll just stick with my two cats. And, BTW, the "boy" is 33...in years anyway. I'm just annoyed it took two years for me to leave.

E: "Call me if you want to hang out sometime."
My translation: "I'm lazy and I want you to chase my lazy ass around so I can tell my friends that I'm a gigantic stud because *you're* chasing me" AKA "I don't want to have to drive the bus all the time." (actual quote from a 45-year old ex boyfriend)

I SWEAR this was the conversation I (a 44 year old female) had with a man (a 56 year old man) after I agreed to drinks last week.

Him: so you wanna come back to my house?
Me: ummm, no but thanks!
Him: what?
Me: I thought this was just drinks and .....
Him: oh never mind, I'm out of here

and he preceeded to stomp his happy ass out of the bar. Since when does 2 vodka drinks equal a ride on the Reginamobile???

To a few folks who have mentioned that me (the woman) should go out and ask men on dates:

I tried this with Recent Frog #3. I asked him to the garlic-restaurant date (he picked the restaurant, though.)

However, while in theory this was a nice idea (me asking him out, be liberated, etc.) the reality was VERY different.

By asking him on the date I had somehow fallen under the category of "easy" and he no longer felt he needed to put forth any effort at all. It was weird, and icky, and of course I stopped seeing him.

For the women who suggest going out there and asking men out, please tell me how it's working for you? Are you finding that being the asker-outer is having great results? I did not at all have that experience. Plus, truth be told, I prefer the man to ask.

You better check Los Angeles General Delivery to see how much mail they get for you. They'll be saying "Crazy Aunt Purl? wtf??"

No it is not happenning exclusively there...I think it is just men in general. I remember a preacher saying once that some male's adolesence extends far into their FORTIES!!!! Holy crap. I knew that girls were supposed to be more mature than boys in high school, but their FORTIES???!!! I don't know that the video games have caused it, but surely it has contributed to it.

In fairness, the young women don't seem all so mature either. This is some cultural antropology thing I am sure....

Don't lower your standards.

I don’t know about everywhere else, but it’s definitely exactly like that in San Francisco. (the other date I HATED being asked on – when he asks you to meet him for drinks at some dive bar, and implies that dinner or a movie or something will follow. But then once you get there he just keeps trying to push more $5 well cocktails on you until he assumes your judgment is sufficiently impaired and then he suggests skipping dinner and heading back to your place. That is not a date. It’s more like attempted date rape, really) I have felt the same way a million times. And I so agree with Susan. I have never been much into the “The Rules” and so when I first encountered that whole Peter Pan approach to dating, I was afraid to make a big deal out of it because I had this feeling that I should just try to appear cool and easy-going, because guys like a girl who’s fun, right? But then at some point I decided, well, if wanting a man to make some *minimal* level of effort to be with me is “high maintenance” then dammit, I AM high maintenance. And since I do want someone who loves me for who I really am, maybe it’s better just to make it clear what I want and see if anyone is willing to do that. And the answer is, yes, definitely. I found that eliminating the “let’s hang out” guys early on freed up my time to meet the real thing. And also? Guys who can’t even commit to a date a few days in advance or making actual plans certainly will never, ever commit to a relationship. So why bother? And for the record, I am now happily engaged to a guy who totally understands the need for a little bit actual courting, so it’s not unrealistic to expect it. One more thing, - I really agree with the previous commenter who said that this bad behavior is the product of girls not demanding more. Women need to be confident enough in themselves and have enough sense of self-worth to realize they are allowed to have some expectations .

Oh my word. You nailed it. I am laminating this post and mailing it to every single man I know, whether I've dated him or not.

My friend B and I have b&^$%#* constantly about the lack of MEN in the CA town we sadly lived in. I am horrified to admit that I too have heard "questions" A,D & E. What is wrong with men that won't ask a woman out on a proper date???

They're thinkin' with the wrong head, that's what's wrong.

Dating other women is not all fun and games y'all. Promise. For all bemoaning how we wish we could just date other women, I was going to write it here but it ended up being too long and I put it up on my blog.

rock on! we have the same problem here in san francisco. but i think one of my all time favourites was when i was introduced to a guy who said, 'oh, i've been watching you from across the bar all night.'

me: 'really?'

him: 'yeah.'

and that was it. he didn't think to CROSS the bar to talk to me before that, and apparently hoped the fact he'd be watching me would get me to take him home right then and there, or something, but couldn't think of ANYTHING else to say to me after that.

dork.

First of all, thank you Purl! I could not agree more with everything you've said. And second of all, I would just like to say that dating in the Midwest isn't any better. It seems a lot of posters think that all they need to find is a nice, family oriented boy from the Midwest. However, after growing up, living and dating in the Midwest (specifically Wisconsin) for all my life, they're no different here. It pains me to say that but it's the truth.

No, your expectations are not unreasonable. No, you are not high maintenance. No (sadly), I do not know any single men. Even the gay men I know are married. (What can I tell you? I live in Massachusetts.)

And one more thing (now you've really got me hypped up!)... it's not just the "let's hang out" it's the "I just broke up with my girlfriend and it wouldn't be fair to either one of us to try and date someone. But I really feel like you and I have this connection... I'd love it if we could hang out sometime and get to know each other."

Translation: I'm still in love with my ex-girlfriend and I don't want to date you but I'm really lonely/horny and I want to get laid.

OMG, I'm so with you! My friend actually told me, and I quote, "New Purl, and it's like she wrote it as "Dear Tracie", go read now!" Going through the same thing here. Ugh. Thank you for this!

Great blog posting today!

I do think that part of the problem is that we women don't demand the proper respect from men. You teach people how to treat you, and for whatever reason, a lot of women are just happy being "good enough". So, we, as women, need to stop that and start expecting to be treated better.

But, I also think there's another issue at hand here..and this was alluded to in one of the other posts. If you're experiencing men like this, the bottom line is that the man JUST ISN'T THAT INTO YOU. When a man really likes you, he does all of those good things - he won't call you last minute, he won't expect you to plan the date, he will think the date through, won't see spending time with you as second best, won't see you as just a booty call, will treat you with respect, etc. etc. When a man is really into you, playing xbox doesn't even come close to spending time with you.

Anyway, I think we all need to be reminded of this from time to time because no woman should put up with just being "good enough". We need to dump those guys and start paying more attention to the guys who are really into us.

Dear Aunt Purl. I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE your blog. Please forgive me for using your comment section as a polling station, but I am confused here!!!

OK ladies. Let me know what you think about this. I have a boyfriend who dances, talks, listens, can fix things, owns his own home, is handsome, loves me and wants to marry me. The bad things are he is self-employed and has not planned at all for the future (no retirment plan whatsoever) even though I have told him outright that I need a sense of security for a long-term commitment. Recently two of his friends brought brand new Harley-Davidsons and he began talking about buying one for himself. Not wanting to tell him DO NOT BUY A NEW HARLEY, I said things like, "You don't have a dime saved for retirment and you want to buy a $20,000 motorcycle?" "Are you sure that is the best use of your money?" "Can you really afford that?" Of course, the answer to all of these questions was NO.

He bought the bike, I broke up and now he regrets it and is miserable. His response is that our talents lie in different areas and, as a team, we have all the bases covered. (I can take care of the organizational, future-planning things and he can take care of all the man things.)

He is a wonderful man, but this element of his personality makes me want to stick needles in my eyes. He is 38, I am just shy of 40 and we have been together almost three years. All of my friends know where I am coming from, but think he is wonderful and that we should work it out.

After reading all the comments, I thought that I have it good.

Is he a keeper?

Thanks!

Singin' to the choir, sister, singin' to the choir.
I'm so tired of the boys. I had one that I thought was actually a man - the first date required reservations, he opened doors, the whole nine yards. Things were amazing for about 6 weeks and then, he apparently either a) lost his mind ~or~ b) got lazy.
He sent me a text message the other day (after about a week of no contact) that said, "Hey, haven't heard from you in awhile - call me".
Needless to say, he didn't talk to me until he called me.
But, I'm not tolerating the bad behavior. I'm going out with a new male on Friday. I have to say "male" because he hasn't been classified as a Man, Guy, or Boy yet.
I've got a 16 year old son who has LEARNED his manners and he knows better than to ever ever pull the kind of stunts that everyone is writing about. Because even though I love him, I'd have to kill him.

I love this post. I feel the same way. I recently, recently (like yesterday) ventured back into dating after a four year relationship ended last year. I, too, took my time -- got myself back together, lost some weight, bought some clothes and took my position at the starting line. I, too, feel like a relic. These guys only want to 'hang out.' They fear spending money on dinner. They want to go dutch at the movies. And it's not a money thing. I have money. But, for at least a couple of weeks, I want to be treated like a GIRL for crying out loud. What the hell happened while I was gone?

--Kelly

I love Rachel's post from way above ...

"We need a man who will talk to us, buy us stuff, fix things, dance with us, have sex with us ..."

My man can do all of those things, and quite well! But before you get jealous, he also comes with baggage galore, not the least of which is two kids from two previous relationships. So - even when you think you have it all, there is always something there to mess it up. I love him lots though, and he loves me in a way that I have have never been loved before ...

I was the one who actually asked him out (sort of ... do emails on Lavalife count as making the first move?). If I am ever single again, I would not hesitate to ask a guy out. My first date after my separation happened cause I asked him out. It was only one lunch date, but it was nice and he didn't try anything uncouth.

Prof. Knitwit -- I think this is another reason why I don't prefer the method of girl-asks-man(boy) out. Aside from the reality I described in my one comment above, I also think that if the man puts forth the effort then you know he's really into you.

And I agree with every commenter who has mentioned that you have to keep the bar high and keep your self-respect and self-esteem, because I also tried being the "fun, cool, laid-back" date, and that one DID NOT work out. I was just left feeling slightly skeeved out by the whole thing, as if I had let myself down. You know?

Boy:) you hit the nail on the head! This has been going on for a long time. When I was newly divorced, guys would say, I'll meet up with you at _________ Sat. nite. (this being TX, it was always the local saloon) I'd say No You Won't, then if I was with friends and they came over I wouldn't dance with them or talk to them (other than polite chatter) or sit next to them if one of my dumb friends, that new to well what was going on. Wouldn't accept their drinks (and I was poor). Soon the message got out that I was an Ice Princess, but that's not true. I am and was a warm, loving and caring person, but you have to be the same back to me. Treat me with respect and I'll do the same for you.

I'm glad I waited! The "man" I married really treats me wonderful.

i don't think it's a coincidence that since i've moved down here i haven't had a boyfriend and i've only been on two dates. men in LA are hopeless.

P.S. Theresa, i am the last one on earth to give relationship advice, LOL. I'm still trying to get a decent date! ;)

Hopefully someone here can help you out. I'm like the Relationship version of "What Not To Wear" ...

"You wanna kick it sometime?" Really? The only thing that should be kicked is the boy who says that in the ASS.

As for asking the man out, I did that with my current boyfriend, and it worked out just fine. You can't make assumptions based on a statistical sample of one.

Here's what I did when I divorced: after enough time had gone by, I started on a friends campaign. I tried to meet people, like you have done by joining knitting groups. I made it a rule to always say "yes" to any opportunity to go out with people. It's hard to make friends after most people have settled into marriage or coupledom, but I made a few. Then I threw a party and asked all of my friends old and new to bring people I didn't know. (I financed this blow-out by selling my wedding ring.) I met a nice woman there who became a good friend, and she invited me over for dinner with a friend of hers - whom I then asked out. That is, my current boyfriend. So it's worth trying.

Here's another thing to consider: for as much as we gals might love to complain about boys who aren't men (and I'm right there with you, I refuse to date "men" who play video games), I know plenty of men who have their own legitimate complaints about women. Most guys I know claim women won't date a man if he doesn't have a lot of money. And they're right - I've know a woman who broke up with her very sweet, intelligent boyfriend because he was a social worker and would "never have the money." I've known a woman who was outraged when a nice fellow she had enjoyed sitting with and talking to on the bus for weeks got the nerve to ask her out for coffee. "He rides the bus!" Of course, so did she.

Now, I'm not saying that's you, Purl, because I'm sure it's not. You don't seem like that. I'm just saying that maybe there's a more complicated thing going on out there than just sub-standard men, like a weakening of social structures that bring people together in natural ways, changes in expectations that leave both sides confused, a mobile culture that removes people from their social networks, and so on.

But it really does sound like you've had a string of awful guys...

I hate boys. I love men. In Small Town West Michigna our men take their women out for dinner, even a cheap $7.95 fish dinner (mmmm, deep fried), EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT. They really do.

Move here. Move back home to the Deep South where they have men. Get out of that crazy Valley that has you brain-washed.

I think it is all mixed up. If men thin Entourge is a dating primer, then women think Sex & The City is one as well. And like, Charlotte, I have been dating since I was 15, and it is exhausting. I fear that all manners are deteriorating. Men don't know how to ask for a proper date, women don't know that the rearview mirror is not for makeup application, and everyone is willing to have private telephone conversations in public. That article is like the "man shortage" article that newspapers and magazines generated a decade ago to scare single women senseless. Dating isn't easy, but it does make great blog fodder.

OMG purl! i agree with you. there have been a few times where i have done the asking and in theory it sounds like a good idea. however, the reality is that men are the ones who want to do the asking. not once has this turned out well for me. it took 3 tries for the reality to sink in. i will never ask a man out again.

i think more than anything it equates to them thinking that you are somehow easy (either sexually or you are an easy catch). they don't have to work hard to get you and therefore they just don't appreciate you. ergo the bar is lowered.

all i can say is....it amazes me how anyone ever gets together. it's a freakin' miracle.

i definately agree. i feel like i'm too old-fashioned to be dating in LA. i want to be courted! i want to be treated like a lady, even when i'm swearing like a sailor.

also, i believe that when i re-enter the dating pool, i will be wearing a waterproof, rust-proof, titanium, never to be opened chastity belt.

I think that we can be hard on the guys out there ... last time I checked, I was not perfect either. I have days where I am stressy and horrible, and I forget my manners sometimes. I am also uptight and opinionated.

I like the dates where you just hang out together ... they can be the dates where you talk and get to know each other better. My first date with my BF was like that. We wandered around Toronto for a few hours just talking and holding hands (and kissing every chance we got cause we had been phone dating for a few days already), and it was great. You can tell when the conversation just flows that you may have something special going on.

Laurie, I have to come clean and say that I am firmly in the "make him chase you" camp. When I was preparing to date again, a very savvy friend of mine asked me if I was more interested in something that came easily or in something that I had to work for. Of course I chose the latter and she asked me why it would be any different for a guy.

I didn't pay too much attention and asked a couple of guys out -- disasters all. But I learned my lesson and made men have to work in order to get my attention. When my now-DH asked me out the first time, I said maybe. I *really* had his attention after that!

Yes, it's playing games but to be brutally honest, I think it's necessary to keep interest piqued.

Theresa, if that's the only thing that's bothering you about your man, then marry him. I think he's right about the two of you balancing each other out. I'm the short term thinker (I really did buy a Harley before I even knew how to drive it) and he's the long-term-save-money kind. I may drive him crazy, but BOY do we have fun together. Thirteen years and it's still the best. If you disagree, then I think there are more problems there that you aren't addressing.

Veggieleslie -- I think if you've read this here website for any amount of time, you know I am not under the false assumption that I am perfect.

But I stand by my post. Dating in Los Angeles is very, very hard.

I don't understand. Just what is the "it" we're supposed to kick?

Your nails, btw, look gorgeous AND lady-like. Decorative but short enough to still be functional, and not put out an eye when removing contact lenses.

Laurie, AMEN and AMEN. I have a friend who is a teacher - she is having the same issues here in Michigan! They all want something for nothing and are looking for a free lunch. What ever happened to an intelligent male species? My fear is that they are all married and their wives are keeping them hidden! :-) Stand strong, there are some good men out there! Just toss any hate mail that comes your way in the circular file - where you should also file men who do not have the intelligence to string a simple sentence together!

You hit the nail on the head. After 7 years with two men (not at the same time, duh), I am trying to date and let me tell you... no, no, I won't tell you because you said it all in your post. Well done.

Sue! hehehehehe

Here's a funny story for you:

Now, I know a few of my girlfriends tell me they have trouble meeting guys. I don't have that same issue, I meet guys all the time, in all sorts of places. This means I also meet a fair amount of... uh, *colorful* characters.

I was in line at the store a couple of weeks ago, when a guy in line behind me struck up a convo. Fine, we chitchatted, until he told me his name.

Him: So, what's your name?

Me: Laurie. What's your name?

Him: Corndog.

Me: ...?
Me:

Me: Did I mention I have a boyfriend?

So, yeah. He is the "kick it" variety of male. I know what some of you may think about me, but I don't want to date a man who introduces himself as "Corndog." Call me shallow! Call me crazy! But do not call me if your name is Corndog. I mean, really.

Though you'll see it got mixed reviews, I liked the premise of "Be Honest - You're Not That Into Him Either: Raise Your Standards and Reach for the Love You Deserve" by Ian Kerner (hideously long link at bottom). I mention it, because in some ways it speaks to what you're talking about here. Men will only try to "date" us in this sloppy manner if we lower our standards and let them. I don't think it's old-fashioned to feel that you deserve better treatment. Frankly, when I read this book, it was like a little dating lightbulb went on over my head -- "Wait a minute - I could have standards!" And, oddly enough, the very next guy I started dating actually met my newly discovered standards, he's still around, and he treats me hundreds of times better than the guy I dumped last year.

Wish I had time here at work to read all the comments, as you seem to have totally touched a nerve here. I'll have to come back later and check it out!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060834064/sr=8-2/qid=1152817700/ref=pd_bbs_2/104-3683063-3857509?ie=UTF8

Dont lower your standards! You hold out for the man to ask you out properly. The whole "I don't want to job through hoops" thing? WHATEVER. You don't want to be treated without respect, and amen to that!

I still do hold firm by the internet dating thing, though. Spell it out loud and clear.... Now I wish I had spelled out "does laundry and dishes without complaint." sigh.

AMEN - Sister! I hear ya! I see this being done all over SC with guys and I can't stand it! Heaven help my brother and the lectures he's had from me, my sister and my mom on how to be a good boyfriend/date/guy that girls can stand. It's a good thing he had a good role model in my dad :) Where do these other types come from?

praise god, sister! You speak the whole truth. And no, you are not old-fashioned or any of those other things. There are entirely too many boys around!!!

In the eternal words of Vivi Walker:

"Forget love, try good manners."

And sometimes? If there are manners, the rest all falls into place.

At least I hope so.

But never never lower your standards. Ever.

AMEN, LAURIE!!!

And it's not just LA - - it's Dallas, Chicago, St. Louis, small cities and small towns throughout the whole country.

And it's PATHETIC!!

I've been married for the last 20 years, and Dear Hubby and I were together for 2 years before that. Dating was tough enough back then - - I can't imagine having to go through it NOW - -

Hang in there, girl - - you WILL find a good one - - they are out there . . . (where are they hiding?)

I'm so sorry to burst everyone's bubble who has commented that Laurie should find a Southern boy/man to date because I'm in the South and trust me, dating sucks in Atlanta too. The completely psychotic 50 year old "child" I went out with on Saturday (the one who had lied to me about his age and told me to my face and on the phone later that my ass is the size of a truck) is a native of Atlanta. My friends and I have discussed ad naseum that we will no longer date beneath us. That doesn't mean we think we're free of faults or better than everyone, but there is a standard we expect. We just can't seem to find anyone who meets it and trust me, it really shouldn't be too hard to do. We simply want to meet someone who treats us with respect. That's hardly expecting too much in my opinion.

honey, welcome to my world.

take comfort in knowing that this is NOT an LA-exclusive phenomenon.

my theory is: men are lazy, and we've made it so. because we've allowed ourselves to get caught up in our society's obsession of what the "perfect woman" is, it's all on us to appeal to THEM. there are 6 women out there to every man, and, there's always some girl prettier/smarter/more willing to play the stupid game than you. It's a hard existence to live.

those of us WITH self-respect and standards are left waiting to find the man out there who isn't looking for barbie (brains defintely not included/or necessarily wanted).

but, like you, I love them. and so I keep trying. we all do. and we all hope that - someday - that MAN, yes MAN, will come along who appreciates you as much as you appreciate them.

long story short - hang in there. be true to who you are. if we all give up hoping that HE is out there, he just may never come along. the universe is a mean old twat like that, sometimes, it seems.

xoxo

Maybe it's a California thing. I know it's prevalent everywhere I hear about. It's sad to realize another area of civility is declining. But the problem is that these guys get away with it, and by us! Time to stop and universally put our foot (feet?) down. Then maybe the men will realize how unacceptable their behavior is, or, if you want to be treated like s**t, then go ahead, be my guest. By the way, I'm printing out this blog entry and sending it to my beautiful 24-year-old niece. She thinks she's the only one who thinks like that.

Theresa, I say you've got a keeper and that he's right that the two of you make a good pair. It sounds like you're expecting him to be a kind of person he's not, but that you are. If he's fantastic in every other way and you can help him save for retirement (or the both of you save together), then go for it.

I live in a pretty rural area. I'd love to meet a man who can spell. I've had some dates through Match.com and they weren't awful, but no keepers yet either. I'm not giving up and I'm not lowering my standards.

No, it's not just LA, and no, you're not being too picky.

I had better luck with Match.com - it's still dating and dating still sucks, but at least you can pre-screen 'em before you meet them in person. And! You get to meet more people in a shorter amount of time.

First time I posted, I had 1,268 people read my profile in six weeks. 35 contacted me, I talked with about 8, met three in person, dated one very nice MAN for five months. We eventually decided it wasn't going to be permanent, but he was a gentleman throughout and a real grown-up. (From Orange County, no less.) Second time I tried it, I met a lovely man who only lives a mile and a half from me - yet we had never met in the grocery store, etc. After his parents split up, his mother raised him with a firm hand and he has wonderful manners and treats me like a princess. Even calls me "Mi tesoro" - "my treasure" in Spanish. Insists on doing the dishes every single time I cook and spoils my cats rotten - and they adore him. He's a computer programmer and is going bald, and I guess other women out here were too superficial to see how wonderful he really is.

The good men, the grown-ups, ARE out there, I swear. But they're awfully hard to find.

So here is something to think about, for each thing we want in a man we are narrowing the pool of choice. Let's say for each thing we demand, only half the male population does it. Let's start with date manners (down to 50%), then sensitive/nice without having excess baggage of his own or being weak (25%), how about a job, not rich or anything, just not looking for support (12.5%), having something in common with you (6.25%) and being attracted to them in the first place (~3%). We are now down to 3% of the population and that is without all the other things we need/want. We are looking for needles in haystacks here and I think I am willing to let a few things slide.

CORNDOG?????? Really? How did you keep a straight face when he said that?

When my son had his first date (at 13...he was SOOO cute) my dh and I had rules. He had to bring her flowers, introduce himself to her parents, hold doors for her, stand when she got up, PAY FOR EVERYTHING and walk her to her door. She turned out to be a real beeyotch in the end but we made sure he learned how to be a gentleman.

Have you heard about Cotillion?? I never had until we moved to the South. It's old-fashioned but useful when it comes to manners and stuff.

Hang in there, Laurie. You're gorgeous, sweet, brilliant and hilarious. Don't waste a second of that on someone named Corndog.

Love you, Liz

I sent this post to all my single friends. I wish they'd had this Esquire article 5 years ago when I was still dating. And I sincerely apologize to anyone who has the misfortune of encountering men that I've dated in the past because I think I was one of those girls who did not raise the bar.

I have two brothers who are exactly like the men you've described so I guess I always believed that it was just the way men were and never expected anything different. If anyone doubts the influence siblings can have on your dealings with the opposite sex, I highly recommend reading the article in Time magazine "The New Science of Siblings."

It's not just LA. It's the same in New York. I think it's a national epidemic!

Laurie,
I think you’re right, asking them out doesn't fix the problem. It's not wrong and it might yield you a great guy if you happen to ask the right one out, but it doesn't do anything to eliminate guys who have no clue what it means to put effort into a relationship. In fact, it encourages them because it means they have to make even *less* effort.
I have tried the method of picking guys I think are interesting and “courting” them, because hey, I’m a strong, capable woman and why should I hold back if I know what I like? But after having tried it a few times, I really believe that (whether it’s stupid and antiquated of them or not) most guys think this means you’re completely spun on them and probably willing to sleep with them immediately (in other words, easy). So they say yes to the date, not because they’re really interested in you too, but because they figure there’s no reason to turn down free dinner AND free sex! However clueless guys pretend to be, I do believe they’re smart enough to know that if they really like a certain woman, they do need to ask her out - and if they want it enough, they aren’t going to wait around for you to make the first move. I wish it weren’t that way, and there certainly are exceptions to the rule, but I think it would be sort of unrealistic to ignore the trend.

I should forward today's post to my best friend, who is single and living in New York, because this is exactly what she complains about: guys, with no manners, with no clue how to treat a woman, with no interest in getting a clue. So apparently it is not a Los Angeles thing!

Remember Lloyd from "Say Anything"? All guys should be required to take instruction from Lloyd, and have tattooed on the back of their dominant hand the thing one of Lloyd's friends said to him: "Well, don't be a guy. Be a man!"

(Perhaps I have no room to talk, what with being a happily married woman and all. But I vote for the Lloyd Plan anyway!)

I agree that there are a lot of boys out there. My brother was treating his girl like crap and she called me, I told her to dump his ass. She did and he straightened right up and now they are getting married. When my boys get to that age, I will do the same to them. I would flip out if they treated anyone the way that most guys think is acceptable for dating!

Aw, Laurie, now my husband won't let me read you any more. I miss all that date, open doors, flowers stuff. He's a dear in day to day stuff, but romance? Feh! He says after 25 years we don't need that. Maybe he doesn't, but it sure would be nice to feel like his precious tresure rather than an above average housekeeper. (I read this to him and he said "I don't say(!) we don't need romance, it's just silly." *sigh* excuse me while I go twist the boy ears (both over 18).

I really doubt you'll get much "hate mail" because they simply don't make 'em like they use to. You know what phrase I hate?? When a guy says of the girl she is dating, "Yeah, we've been hanging out and stuff." Are you dating? Or are you dangling from a set of monkey bars?

Here's to hoping that you find a MAN sometime soon.

I hadn't realized how prevalent "wanna hang out some time?" had become, until I met a boy (a nice midwestern boy) who said, "I think you're beautiful. Would you like to have dinner with me next week?" And I was utterly charmed.

We've been married five years as of last April.

Fabulous nails!

I have to agree with Melissa A. - if a man has not been married by 35 there is a reason

I have to agree with Melissa A. - if a man has not been married by 35 there is a reason

*sigh*

I hear ya, laurie. Damn, do I hear ya.

Look on the bright side: In a city the size of LA, at least there's a chance someone different is hiding around the corner somewhere! I live in a really small town, and I'm thinking I need to start collecting stray cats and practising my crazy spinster routing.

Excellent and very true post. I went out with my single girlfriends last Friday and was quickly reminded why I was glad I wasn't single anymore.

Your post reminded me of the story my Southern mother, who was in her 20's way back then, went out on a date with Northern guy. He had told her he did not open doors or chairs for women. So they went to a resturant and my mother stood at her chair until he finally got up from his chair to pull it out for her with most of the resturant watching. He didn't seem to have any trouble remembering his manners from then on.

Wow, I guess I'm in the minority here. I like the casual "let's hang out" type of dates. At 42, I'm a year out of a long term relationship and so happy that at least some of the men my age aren't all stiff and weird about dating. I've found that hanging out with someone lets you get to know them - in my experience, proper "dates" do not give any indication of the true person.

Rules like "if he hasn't called by Wednesday, then I'm not going out with him till next week" seem silly to me. I just make my own plans as I want, and if I get a last minute call, either I'm free or not. And I feel free to invite him to something if I want, either in advance or at the last minute. No games, just honesty. Etiquette has changed over time. I think you should be who you are, not cleave to some possibly outmoded sense of etiquette that doesn't reflect your personality or the time you live in.

But Purl, if being true to yourself and what you want means expecting a certain kind of date, then stay true to that! Just make sure it's not because you think that's how it's *supposed to* be, but because that's how you *want* it.

Karen, I have thought a lot about that (I went through an "Oh I'll try to be fun and laid back and casual kind of dater!" phase) but it didn't work for me.

I guess I really am old-fashioned, but also it's a safety issue (here in Los Angeles anyway).

I flatly refuse to go to the house of a complete stranger who I just met in the grocery store or wherever. It doesn't seem safe. Ditto him saying "I'll come to your place and we can hang out." I feel more comfortable in a restaurant or walking around the beach together or whatever. I'm not asking for someone to take me to The Ivy in a limo. I'm asking for the following:

1) Call when you say you will call.

2) Ask me, "Would you like to attend XYZ activity with me on Day Of Week?"

3) Pick me up on Day Of Activity, and we have a date. Be nice to me.

I don't think that's terribly demanding, but I am after all Southern, so perhaps it is. Either way, it's what I'm comfortable with. I am not now nor will I ever be comfortable with a man asking me over to his house to watch TV as a first date. I think it's a recipe for disaster, Phil Specter style.

I have definately noticed the boy/man thing both in San Francisco and St. Louis... But I will say this: When I guy really, really likes you he sprouts manners (or some aproximation thereof - he may not know how to ask you to dinner, but he will go out of his way to try an be sweet and attentive in his own mixed-up way) If he's being all "let's kick it sometime", he's not really interested.

I once went out with a guy because he offered to walk me home from the bar then *not* come upstairs. I was impressed. And he was 27 years old and straight. So they *do* still exist.

And Karen, I think your advice is absolutely spot-on: a girl has to know what she's comfortable with.

I think early on (in March) I wasn't sure what I was OK with as a mid-thirties-divorced woman. Was I OK with casual sex? Was I ok with play-it-by-ear? I tried different things, and I guess for me I discovered that my upbringing and values have conditioned me to like certain things, and I think they're nice things, simple things, that give relations between men and women a kind of sweetness and romance and kindness that I love.

God, I am so antique. LOL

Maybe Los Angeles men never call, but apparently the Philadelphia thing is to meet at the party on friday, sleep together, spend saturday together, say i love you some time between sunday night and monday morning, then break up by friday.

It resembles sixth grade.

Reader Molly sent me a link to Rabbi Shmuley today (I love that man) and here is what he says in an article on dating:

"This tradition, of a woman completing and refining a man, was what the entire system of courting was once based on. When men courted women, it was the man who did the work. He had to refine his character and go to work on becoming a gentleman. He had to learn manners, dress immaculately, behave chivalrously, and only then was he deemed worthy of courting. Without developing these qualities, the chances of a man acquiring a wife were virtually nil. Today, however, women are actually devolving to appeal to men, rather than inspiring men to reach their elevated plane. On a modern date, while the woman goes through her two-hour routine to get ready for a night out, all the man has to do is shave, scratch his crotch, jump in the car, belch, and pick her up. This is certainly not the way a man should treat someone he prizes."

Amen, Rabbi.

Here is the whole article:
http://www.shmuley.com/articles.php?id=190

I watch "The View" on ABC when I can. I checked Joy Behar, one of the basic members of the group. Her words of wisdom are "I want a man in my life, not my house". Now, should I beleive this from a woman who's had a 24-25 yr. relationship with "Steve"? Joy is a woman whom I can relate to in my personal life, primarily age and attitude. She also maintains her own home, identity, income, etc. You can check out Joy on the "View" or IMDb. By the way, I suppose that many have heard of the new "Reality" Show - About 10 cat roomies from a shelter. Please tell me about it. It's on Animal Planet, and I don't have cable.

Ladies -- good men can be found in ballroom ("social") dancing classes. Straight men who want to learn to dance? It's a beautiful thing. Go sign up now! My best friend and I both have ballroom-dating success stories.

Also, Theresa: I'm not usually one for promoting an ultimatum, but motorcycles and cigarettes are the two exceptions. He sounds like a great guy except for this "one thing" (and every person has a "one thing" -- the question is, can you live with it?). If he'll ditch the bike, take him back. BUT, if he loves the bike more than you, he's obviously not a keeper. Motorcycle safety courses or no, it's the drivers with whom bikers have to share the road who are usually the problem. Bottom line, motorcycles are dangerous, and you want to marry a man who is going to stay alive.

I have a lot of guy friends, and we visit the topic in conversation a lot. This is what I have learned.

If a man diesn't ACTUALLY come out and ask you on a date, and you say no, then they were never ACTUALLY rejected.

juvenile yes, but at least some logic is involved.

Echoing some earlier comments - its moron girls like myself who allow and even HOPE for the pathetic, "hey, let's watch a movie." or "hang out later" that have allowed this to develop.

Laurie,

First of all, I cannot believe the boy's name was Corndog, WHAT?

Second of all, you are comfortable with what you are comfortable with. I would not want to go over to a *man's* house on a first, second or even a third date. After all, do you really know who he is or what he represents? It's not just a Southern thing. I think there are plenty of women out there that would agree with you and obviously they do and they are not all from the south. You are a good woman who knows what she wants, is that so much to ask?

I feel for you and your dating experiences. I cannot imagine what it is like. No more of the fluttering heart of the person getting asked anymore, more like she is standing there wondering what in the heck did he just say? Ugh!

Mrs. Laurie Corndog. hmmm. Nah, I just don't see it. Will strive to do a good job raising the 3yo. the good ones are out there- no need to settle, if I had I would have married a big ole redneck named bubba with a big ole shotgun. um, no thanks. :)

unfortunately it appears that NZ men - who have always been like this - are influencing the rest of the world.

Oh my God, I'm comment eleventymillion, but preach it, girl. I'm 48 years old. The last man to ask me out on a proper date was over 60 - and I don't mean like Harrison Ford over 60, I mean like Grandpa Walton over 60. Men around my own age are still doing the "Oh, we should go out sometime." I always respond with a pleasant, "We should, that would be nice." But honestly, what IS that? What the hell is that? It's not an invitation, it's a nothing. I've been out of the dating pool since the freaking BeeGees and the boys are now balding and sometimes have grandkids but it's the same old shit. The older ones just don't say "hang" thank GOD.

You're not an antique, you're just someone who knows herself, and that's good, both for you and for the potential dates.

Years ago, I was having dinner with a work acquaintance who is a singer/songwriter/poet, and we were discussing my sadness and inability to find someone who made me happy. He said to me "You'll find someone who knows it's not so hard to make a woman happy - you listen when she talks, you respect what she says, sometimes you pick her flowers on the way home." (Sigh.) I replied that I just wanted to find someone who didn't lie and cheat. He looked me right in the eye and said "Darlin', you may be shootin' a little too low." Crazy hillbilly Zen master...

But, of course, he was totally right. If I don't articulate (and demand) what I want (and deserve), I'm certainly never going to find it.

Good day Ladies and Gentlemen,

I'd like to apologize to the last 30 posters before this; I have run out of time and I am unable to read your posts. I did read the first 40 or so posts however and I would like to provide some input from a male/man's perspective.

The art of dating has been long lost. Dating was originally the time that two people spent to get to know one another to see if anything else was applicable. It wasn’t a relationship, it wasn’t the start of a relationship – it was the curtsy and nod before the dance that would become the relationship, if there ever was a dance to begin with. And it was accepted that it may not work out. Of course there were dashed hopes, but that was also part and parcel to the movements of ‘dating.’

I'd like to point out that I think that I am a very lucky man. I get a lot of compliments from my lady friends whom I respect about how I treat others (and by that they mean women).

I ask for a date, which may not be "Would you like to go out on a date," but it certainly does not fall below "Would you like to do something on Monday?" In the case of a recent situation 'something' was the word of choice because I asked her out rather spontaneously, and it was 2 days away - plenty of time to properly plan a casual date. I still get nervous about asking a girl out, and definitely about the first kiss – should there be one. I never put out on the first date, it lacks tact and you barely know the person.

Largely this is a personal decision; my father is an amazing guy, but he turns into a "Man's Man" way to often for my liking. I never liked the way that he treated women (not that it's horrible it just isn't to my liking), but he is a great role model for his work-ethic. The only person who I looked at for guidance as to how I should treat someone was the person I was dealing with. Blaming one's parents is a fallacy.

You can only be treated the way that you want to be treated. Accept no less, and you will receive no less. This is not just a personal motto, but it rings true for us as a society as well.

The 'modern man' doesn't have to work for anything, and has lost touch with what it is like to have to want and then earn. Children (boys and girls) are allowed to behave however they want with little to no repercussions - as set out by our Laws, our Public School Policies, and over all how we treat each other as people. They are groomed for instant gratification because everything around them is handed to them without effort. A baby cries and it gets the most convenient answer that there is - food, drink, toys, etc. A child wants a new pair of Nike-ridiculous-priced-shoes-for-a-10-year-old and it's easier to give it to them then say no because there are no consequences that a parent has when the child then throws a tantrum or becomes destructive. We aren't allowed. And then the child gets mugged for said shoes, and 'needs' another pair.

When they get older they fail to realize that there are consequences to their actions, and they have not lost their grooming for instant gratification. They start playing with adult things that have adult consequences and they have no concept of what they are actually doing, because they have never had to think about it.

These children think that they have become adults because society puts an age on being an adult, and they don't realize that it's a 'recommended age to when you’re supposed to have your life together.' It is viewed to be something they are given, just like everything else they have ever gotten.

The situation is not just boys, or men - it is the progression of our youth in the 'modern age;’ both sexes of our youth. It breeds boys who do not have to grow up, and hold onto the insecurities that BOYS have. And how does a boy deal with insecurities? He pretends to be a man, but without the experience and thus he does a poor job at it. This has not changed with the turning of time, but in the modern view of society the boy of today has never had to work for anything in his life and it is assumed that manhood will also be given. The boy of yester-year had to work for what he wanted, and it was assumed that he had to work for his man-hood; nothing was given to you.

This is no different for the girls of our society. The article referenced for this post makes reference to the failing of boys/men, but there are issues with the women of the modern age as well. You can see the elements of this in other articles such as "Girl Culture Begets Backlash" (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,117822,00.html).

People, in general, need to be reminded that there are consequences for your actions and that you can't be a child forever. There are many things in the world to see and do, and maybe you need to limit yourself a little and made some hard earned decisions.

On a more direct note it's not easy being a male in today's world, just as it is not easy being female. Dating is ridiculous - there are so many contradictory footnotes in the book of dating that it is impossible to know what the next step is, never mind whether or not it's the right step. And it seems like today that no one likes anything set in stone. Making plans with some friends earlier this evening resulted in "I really want to do this but I need to check with work, my girlfriend, and my folks to see what is going on." I don't mind that these other important things have a higher priority but when it's everyone doing it - including the girl that your trying to set a date with, it can get very daunting.

As a fairly young (30) man in today’s world it seems that I have the option of dating the 'hawt biotch' who looks fabulous but can barely tie her shoes and can’t read a book without help(did I mention that modern slang and the disastrous slide of our language bothers me?), the 'industrious business woman' who wants everything her way to fit into her schedule(talk about nervous! What if I screw up! I'll get a pink slip under my pillow!), or someone who just watched life pass them by and gave up trying to catch it.

It seems to me that it is just as frustrating being a Man trying to find that 'right person' then it is as a woman doing the same, especially with the negative views that many women have toward dating, as seen in many of the responses to this blog. Men aren't the only directionally challenged people out there.

Kevin

Speaking as a guy, you could say I have a vested interest in this conversation. And I can only really speak from my own vantage point. But here goes.

There's a very small, limited window of opportunity to ask a girl out. Say you meet a girl at a party or a concert or wherever, and you hit it off. DILEMMA: You want to see this girl again, but it's way too early to ask for a date outright (after all, you barely know this person), so you need to get her number (or risk never seeing her again.) But the simple act of requesting a number can go horribly wrong: you're bound to get a number either way, but if she's not really into you, she'll turn wooden and creeped out and will either give you a bogus number or not return your call. So in these circumstances, when a guy says "We should hang out sometime", it's a way of testing the waters before asking for a number. The actual request for a date will come later.

So you call said girl and chat for a bit, and you decide that the girl wasn't just humoring you when you met, and that it's okay to press forward. In most circumstances, it's still too early to ask for a date, so the meeting will have to be on neutral ground, preferably in mixed company, like a bunch of friends are getting together for something or other (a party, a concert, going out for drinks) and gee, wouldn't it be great if you came along? This way you can interact within the group-- you're not expected to focus solely on each other, which would be way too creepy. PROBLEM: Neutral ground always seems to be getting smaller and smaller, especially as you grow older. Friends become increasingly less available to pal around with as they get married and become more involved in the clique known as "family".

So by some miracle, said girl has agreed to a collective movie night or beach-blanket-bingo or what have you and your friends don't bail on you. You have a good time! She has a good time! She likes your friends (or rather, she doesn't hate them.) This is your extremely limited window of opportunity (I would say no more than 72 hours) to ask her out on a bona fide date. If you don't ask her out in this window, she'll assume you didn't have a good time (regardless of what actually happened) and that you're not interested, and any attempts to ask for a date outside this window will be met with skepticism if not (muted) hostility.

So the reason that guys don't ask for dates is because there are a lot of things that have to happen just