« Shake your bootie. | Main | Bob The Cat Vs. The Thing He Once Fell Into While Drinking Illicit Water »
September 17, 2005
My bootie is shaped all wrong.
Is it a plot? Do they deliberately make patterns complicated so that remedial knitters like myself WILL GET MAD AND WANT TO QUIT KNITTING thereby freeing up the good yarn for those of you who have the time, patience and perhaps know-how to de-code a pattern?
First, you go read this pattern. Then come back and tell me if you, being a normal human without an advanced degree in Applied Bootie Making & Pattern Decoding, would do as I did. Or don't tell me, because maybe I am the only dumbass in the room.
I started with the "To begin..." portion and then moved right into the "Next" portion.
BUT THAT IS WHERE THE TRICKERY LIES. I HATE YOU AND YOUR EVIL TOMFOOLERY, PATTERN. I HATE YOU.
Because look closely. See that "next" part? It says... Rows 11-18, knit the odd rows, purl the even rows. Like it's basically saying, "I'm giving you a helpful hint here, we're doing stockinette while shaping!" And then it goes right into the new rows, rows that do not start with #19, no, no, that would be easy. Sequential numbering is too easy for people! Must make it hard! So the pattern starts back at #1! Making you (me) assume we just start knitting the next numbered row.
BUT THAT IS A LIE! A TRICK!
Because this pattern wants you to hate yourself. Those row numbers are not correct. There are not just TWO portions to this bootie of despair. No. There are THREE PORTIONS.
And here's a hint: "Next" is not a good heading for what should be called "Step 2 of 3" or "The middle" or anything besides "NEXT..."
I would like to say here, on the record, that if you write patterns and you want only smart people to use them, put a disclaimer on it, won't you? Because dumb people like knitting too. And some of us knit on the bus, where we do not have the coffee and/or wine needed (depending on time of day) to read your poorly numbered rows and say, "Oh! What Secret Pattern Code Writer REALLY wants us to do is knit rows 11-18 in stockinette, and then rows 19-31 in stockinette with shaping, then rows 32-33 in knit fuzzy yarn, and then bind off. Even though all the rows are mis-numbered from the gitgo. Cool!"
No. Instead, the pattern writer uses crazy numbering and fancy tomfoolery to keep my bootie misshapen. And I have big bootie, people.
I know that this is happening because I am a Remedial Knitter, and I'm probably being punished because I once spit into the wind, and because of that time I said that thing about the girl with cameltoe. But is it too much to ask that knitting patterns are written out in normal words? Is it?
Honestly, what purpose does it serve to write EVERYTHING in mysteriously organized shorthand that has to be meticulously de-coded? And then the shorthand keeps changing! YF means yarn over! SKP means slip-stitch-pass-slipped-stitch-over, which other patterns abbreviate as PSSO. Ya'll, I can barely remember my own phone number. How can I be expected to remember 37 different ways of saying yarn over? How?
Advanced Knitters who know the Secret DaVinci Code of Knitting Patterns are thinking I'm just lazy.
YOU'RE RIGHT. I am LAZY. And TIRED. And life is so hard, why does a knitting pattern have to be hard, too? Are we knitting in code because spies are listening in on our pattern transmissions? Are we trying to make sure the commies can't knit up some Ugg booties? Are we curing cancer here? Can't we all just get along?
Well then.
Of course I had already finished and seamed said misshapen bootie before discovering my error. And of course I'm going to plod through and make two new booties using the de-coded pattern. And at the end of this I will have one lonely, squat Ugg bootie left. Maybe I'll give it away online. Free! One bootie! For your amusement!
Because Lord knows, if there's a good place to get free bootie, it's the internets.
Posted by laurie at September 17, 2005 10:53 AM
Comments
Yay for free bootie! :) Boo for tricky evil tomfoolery patterns! :(
maybe you can turn the odd bootie into some sort of cell phone cozy & gift it to somebody artsy. yeah. they wouldn't know the difference. maybe.
Posted by: keohinani at September 17, 2005 11:01 AM
The pattern writers are the dumb ones, not us knitters!!! :)
Posted by: Devon at September 17, 2005 11:03 AM
It's a funny thing about bootie...
It's like you're happy when you get some, but if it's an odd shaped bootie, kind of frumpy and mis-shapened, it makes you wonder why you trying to git some in the first place, that's all.
And be careful of who you give your bootie to. They may come back for seconds and if you're not willing to give it up, it'll be all *weird* or something.
I say stick with the cats and the wine.
Posted by: Amie at September 17, 2005 11:06 AM
Miss Laurie,
I'm not sure if I'm a remedial knitter or not, but I totally get the weirdness of patterns. I understand why they're short and funky in print (space saving and all that) but I SO don't get why they're short and funky on the internet. If you work up to sweaters, try a girlfromauntie pattern. I'm working on her Eris sweater, and she writes EVERYTHING out. It's fantastic.
Maybe we should start a knitter's movement. ;) Understandable patterns for all!
-Sarah
Posted by: Sarah at September 17, 2005 11:42 AM
I am, apparently, a freaking remedial typist. That first sentence should read I get the frustration over weirdness of patterns. :P
*sigh*
Posted by: Sarah at September 17, 2005 11:43 AM
BWAAAAH! <3 I seem to remember having feelings like this over the cashmere booties in Simple Knits for Cherished Babies. Seriously, if you do the bootie over? I promise it'll work this time. Sometimes ya just need a TEST RUN. I know I usually do.
Also, the bit about women in tank tops with 8' long skinny scarves? <333333333
You rock.
Posted by: Rainy at September 17, 2005 12:10 PM
Again, So glad I saw these posts. I probably would have done the same thing....and frogged back and swore until the cows come home. Thank you for decoding the mystery pattern.
I agree - people should write their patterns according to the knitting standards. Sheesh, how hard is it?
Posted by: Lynae at September 17, 2005 12:13 PM
Great business idea: Translation services for patterns. I think they all try to get under our skin and make us want to throw things. Knitting is supposed to be relaxing, not some kind of test. Let's have more wine, girls.
Posted by: Anonymous at September 17, 2005 01:12 PM
Can I just say, that I love you for using the word TOMFOOLERY not once, but twice in one post. Love love love!
Posted by: korin at September 17, 2005 01:53 PM
I think that was a very poorly-written pattern. We shouldn't have to decode our patterns! Hisssssss!
I'm still recommending Kris Percival's "Knitting Pretty." She writes everything out, in every pattern. It was invaluable to me when I first started knitting almost 3 years ago, and the patterns? So cute. My only complaint is that some of the patterns don't include a photo of the finished project. But the patterns? Well written, and so cute.
Posted by: Julie at September 17, 2005 01:58 PM
Having made booties using a 1950's pattern book found in the back corner of an antique store, your pattern is totally f-UGG'd up. Seriously. Thanks for the heads up on the DIY incompetence. And sweet Aunt Purl, don't let this be your defining experience for non-hat/scarf projects.
Posted by: Dusa at September 17, 2005 02:00 PM
Bootie patterns are apparently inherently screwed up. I've tried about a dozen different ones and my baby is still bootie-free, because not one of them has made sense. That baby gets socks, which stay on better anyway. I don't *think* I'm a remedial knitter...
Posted by: Kara at September 17, 2005 02:08 PM
I really, really, really, really, really, wish pattern writers would have some sort of summit or something and decide on a standard shorthand for patterns. It really sucks when you have to reference 3-4 books just to figure out wtf they are trying to tell you.
If anyone can do it, it's you Laurie!
Posted by: Chelee at September 17, 2005 02:11 PM
Ah, too bad. I just threw away a singleton booty that I made from a completely different booty pattern (1 hour booties in SnB nation). We could have stuck 'em in a gift box and said, "Happy new baby. We're hoping to bring back the Punky Brewster trend of two different shoes!"
NOONE WOULD EVER SUSPECT! Mwa ha ha!!
I had booty guilt & kept the screwy one for several months until I realized I was never going to frog such a tiny amount of yarn, and finally threw it away.
Put some catnip in the screwy ugg, sew up the top and watch the kitties slobber all over it.
Posted by: canttalkknitting at September 17, 2005 02:16 PM
Can you use the lonely bootie as a key chain dangle thingy?
Posted by: Debbie at September 17, 2005 03:26 PM
Laurie, why is there no picture of the mutant bootie? We love to see the photographic documentation of these things.
Posted by: Krickit at September 17, 2005 03:26 PM
laurie, she has a crocheted version candy babies. i will go check now to see if its written the same way.......will let you know!
Posted by: jana at September 17, 2005 04:02 PM
I totally agree with you about patterns - 100%. It's a weeding out process - a lot like Organic Chem.
Posted by: Lisa at September 17, 2005 04:05 PM
wel'p, the crocheted version's instructions look easier, but that's just me. i hate, hate, hate shaping a knit item....however, i like the look of the knit verion more....dilemma i know.
Posted by: jana at September 17, 2005 04:21 PM
Oh man, those 1 hour booties in SnB Nation were seriously messed up! I made a pair, but I hated them. My daughter took pity on them and adopted them for one of her baby dolls. :)
("Knitting Pretty"!!)
Posted by: Julie at September 17, 2005 04:39 PM
I am so with you on this one! I've been knitting for a whole almost five months now and it is still difficult enough at times to know what the pattern, in its simplest form, wants me to do. Therefore, I have no desire to try and decode a pattern by some silly bitch trying to be cute.
Posted by: Kim at September 17, 2005 05:34 PM
As a designer, this is the kind of input I need when I'm finishing up a pattern. Well, that and a really good proofreader and editor, as otherwise my patterns get published with grievous errors. I'm trying to use test knitters, but so far I've got only one (interested in doing some test knitting? Let me know! And then you can cuss out the stupid designer to her face!).
If you think written patterns are a pain, charted patterns are supposed to cut down on the confusion. Now let me hand you a glass of wine. Symbol chart patterns are supposed to be universal to make it easier - but they aren't! And the knit symbol fonts available for use don't have all of the symbols available! I've been trying to write a couple of patterns as charts because charts are supposed to eliminate some of the problems with written patterns, and it's become rather challenging as I have given up smoking. Maybe it's denial, but I really think charting would be easier if I had a pack of Nat Sherman MCDs and an ashtray next to my computer. And a lighter, of course.
By the way: yf is a specific type of yarn over, which does not leave a hole in the fabric. skp and psso: not identical. skp = slip one stitch, knit the next stitch, pass the slipped stitch over the knit stitch. psso = pass slipped stitch over. Did that just make your headache worse? If you want to ease the headache, get your hands on a copy of Annie Modesitt's Confessions of a Knitting Heretic. No, scratch that, I'll GIVE you a copy. If it doesn't help the pain in your head, you can smack me with it.
Posted by: mk at September 17, 2005 05:42 PM
Those booties are so adorable, and they're even cuter once you get them done. I've made several pairs, one with the sueded yarn, and the rest with regular. And with the fuzzy yarn on top, they're too cute! I didn't bother with the side stitching tho, too messy for me. So I just put the white fuzzy stuff around the top. Good luck
Posted by: Ashley at September 17, 2005 06:48 PM
I'm laughing so hard I am crying. You soeak the truth Laurie.
Posted by: Trishy at September 17, 2005 06:50 PM
Laurie, I just want you to know, as much as I love that show Knitty Gritty, the episode that featured those booties was the worst I've seen. The guest did a terrible job demonstrating how to knit the booties and the host, Vicky looked like she had given up trying to help. It's not you, honey. I wanted to try to make them, but after I saw the show I changed my mind. Good luck to you. I hope you figure it out. I still have it on the TiVo. I can burn it to dvd and send it to you. I did learn how to do cables from a different episode of that show. You should try it, it's really fun!
Posted by: Jaimie at September 17, 2005 06:58 PM
Goes with the territory of knitting patterns. Many people (me included) write for themselves. The person writing the pattern has been living with the pattern so long they think, "Of COURSE everyone will understand what I mean!". Sadly, not true.
I usually try to work through (in my head) the knitting pattern ahead of time, and re-write the pattern in words that make more sense to me. It takes a little more time, but saves a lot of screaming and ripping later.
Posted by: Geogrrl at September 17, 2005 07:51 PM
They really are cute booties...don't give up. Sometimes it seems like patterns are just all in code. It IS a conspiracy you know...I think it is the Republicans...but I am not too sure.
Posted by: Mary at September 17, 2005 08:01 PM
sell the misshapen bootie on ebay.
see how much one of us will pay for it.
cuz you know someone will pay.
Posted by: kendra at September 17, 2005 09:00 PM
I'll bet that you get some interesting hits from Google based on this topic. And don't feel bad. I'm convinced that some people just can't adequately explain how to move from one step to the next. I'm working on a mitred baby sweater that shouldn't be difficult in theory but the instructions are driving me batty. Don't let that bootie kick yours. Show it who's boss.
Tanya
Posted by: Tanya at September 18, 2005 05:18 AM
I agree with canttalkknitting - stuff it with catnip, tie it up and present it to the cats. You could put it on a silver salver and make a love offering to Sobakawa if you wanted to get on her good side.
Please do not let this idiotically written pattern put you off of things besides scarves and roll brim hats. I try look at patterns all the way through, rather like a recipe; it's easier than getting mid-way to find I'm missing a key ingredient or tool. There have been times I've made something up in cheap stash yarn (and not even kept to gauge!!) to see how it works before committing good yarn and time.
EZ says something to the effect of - Knit on, with confidence!
Posted by: Leslie at September 18, 2005 05:23 AM
ooooooooh, the frustration is reaching epic proportion! Sadly, I can relate. Really, try the knitty.com Tychus hat .... the instructions are fabulous!
Posted by: Mavis at September 18, 2005 05:53 AM
Oh my gosh, thank you, thank you, once again, for a great laugh. Ever since I discovered your blog and read about the poor city bus that caught on fire, I have loved this blog and your "adventures". Thanks for the laugh and I'm off to get a cup of coffee--too early for wine. Persevere on the bootie!
Posted by: Jessica at September 18, 2005 07:41 AM
My knitting library has been all vintage patterns. Back when designers would take the time to properly write a pattern and then have test knitters check it make sure it's understandable. Though I have found a couple doozies, there as well.
I think some of the designers and publishers are too quick to get the next hottest pattern/book out there. Therefore forget about the appropriate steps. Besides, if there's a bunch of mistakes, just do a rewrite and charge more money.
Posted by: Denise at September 18, 2005 08:24 AM
right now I am stuck on fingerless gloves. I plow right through the cuffs (beautiful mock cable pattern...I'm so proud) and then I get to the gusset for the thumb, the instructions suddenly turn to another language I can't understand and I am screwed! One day I have faith that the instructions will sink in. Being right brained is a blessing and a curse! Try it again, you will get it!
Posted by: robin at September 18, 2005 09:25 AM
booties are tough to knit because i can never visualize what's going to happen. like suddenly, in some random row, a magic fairy comes and turns the crazy L-shaped or U-shaped fabric into a bootie, and i just have to have faith that it will happen. i guess i should read through the pattern first ...
Posted by: carrie m at September 18, 2005 10:27 AM
aunt purl, you are correct. that pattern is nothing but a crazy maker. did you make something crazy with it? good. you followed the pattern correctly.
Posted by: megan at September 18, 2005 10:32 AM
I'm back, having checked my reference library books. I was wrong earlier; because Ms Jensen is British, her yf does indeed mean yo in American (figured this out because her pattern calls for knitting into the back of the yo to twist it). Other ways to say yf or yo: yrn (yarn round needle) yon (yarn over needle), wrn (wool round needle), won (wool over needle). Also, yf can mean yarn forward as in bring the yarn to the front of the piece. More wine?
Would you like a translation of the bootie pattern? I re-read it just now and I think I could translate it to your specs.
Posted by: mk at September 18, 2005 11:40 AM
I checked out a number of listings on the DIY site...and you know what? It is all either silly frou-frou stuff that a seven year old could figure out or possibly cute things that I suspect require a decoder ring...oh, hell.
Here I was gonna rant and then BAM! decoder ring! Wouldn't that be fantastic? Something a bit Dick Tracy that explains basic knit techniques and could put you in contact with someone for more difficult maneuvers. Perhaps the time of tech support for knitters has come...
Posted by: Ariel at September 18, 2005 11:48 AM
I checked out a number of listings on the DIY site...and you know what? It is all either silly frou-frou stuff that a seven year old could figure out or possibly cute things that I suspect require a decoder ring...oh, hell.
Here I was gonna rant and then BAM! decoder ring! Wouldn't that be fantastic? Something a bit Dick Tracy that explains basic knit techniques and could put you in contact with someone for more difficult maneuvers. Perhaps the time has come for knitting tech support...
Posted by: Ariel at September 18, 2005 11:48 AM
I'm not sure why my comment appears twice, once as mk.
Posted by: Ariel at September 18, 2005 11:50 AM
Actually, there IS a sort of knitting decoder ring. Try http://www.knittinghelp.com/
She has videos of almost everything. Excellent instruction. And I know it always helps me to see something being done, instead of just reading instructions. :)
-Sarah
Posted by: Sarah at September 18, 2005 12:08 PM
I would have gotten stuck at the first "yf" - I didn't know that yf could be an increase at all until 2 days ago, when weirdly enough I bumped into this on the web:
http://www.keyboardbiologist.net/Techniques/YarnForwardKnit.htm
It's a picture-by-picture step of the whole yarn forward increase thing.
Although after scrutinizing all the pictures, I still don't see how it's any different from a yarn-over - maybe this is the British yarn-foward-identical-to-US-yarn-over that mk was talking about.
Posted by: BigAlice at September 18, 2005 01:17 PM
If the cats don't like it, you could either save it for a one-legged baby or a well-endowed future boyfriend. Hmm....
Posted by: Karen at September 18, 2005 01:29 PM
oh my, just too funny!
Took my darling Grandmother 15 years to teach me the intricacies of the pattern!
Posted by: deadlyfemale at September 18, 2005 02:25 PM
Bummer! I hate it when that happens!
You could always use the single bootie as a Christmas ornament :)
Posted by: ck at September 18, 2005 02:43 PM
The only thing I can think is that whoever wrote the pattern did not take the time to read over what s/he had written. If this person had, there would have been the moment when "Aha! Perhaps I should not use the word 'next' as a heading more than once. Perhaps I should do something about my row numbering too."
After reading the pattern a few times, I believe it is all finally starting to make sense.
Posted by: Dagny at September 18, 2005 03:58 PM
I just sent a copy of this post to my best friend, way on the other side of the country. When I first taught her to knit I sent her some of the Yarn Harlot posts to the knitlists.
When I sent her this, I made the subject line "freakin' birds", because that is how much I laughed. I'm just thankful I finished my tea before I started reading.
But I do agree that it is a modern conspiracy, to keep those of us intelligent enough to knit interesting patterns busy, so we won't notice whats really going on. I think it has something to do with the new popularity of crochet, but I'm not sure. I can't read crochet charts.
Posted by: annmarie at September 18, 2005 09:22 PM
Just like the fortune cookie says: first bootie-always bad.
Posted by: Emily at September 19, 2005 06:58 AM
It's a bootie conspiracy all the way around. I can't ever understand crochet bootie patterns. But you should still learn to crochet, cause it's cooler, just stay away from the bootay.
Posted by: Tracey at September 19, 2005 08:45 AM
Hopeful you are still not smoking. Nice move and a fitting tribute to your dear BF Peter Jennings.
Posted by: Muffy at September 19, 2005 08:48 AM
Why not stuff said bootee, give it two eyes and a tail, call it a mouse and let the cats play with it!
Posted by: Beverley at September 19, 2005 11:04 AM
my god. that much snorting at work should not be allowed. and then i scrolled down to the LAST post and saw the actually SHAPE of the... bootie. more snorting. bad for "professional image." oh well :-)
Posted by: Alice at September 19, 2005 11:30 AM
Yes, the pattern does seem to have problems. I'm only sayin' - because to go into it deeply would be to throw a few bricks from this glass house (uh, er, um, moi? mistake in a pattern...???)
I don't like the use of YF, myself, because it's fun to say YO! and because I use the Yarn to the FRONT technique a lot for double knitting and all of those Y's and F's begin to sound like swearing after a while.
And, yes, I DO think it would be more helpful to break the pattern down in sections. I try to do this with my patterns - don't always succeed - and say things like
BODY
Here's where you make the body
Back
Specifically the back
Armhole shaping
Here's where you shape the armhole
you get the idea.
I am in pattern writing hell right now, and everytime I start to write a new pattern I sort of feel like I'm starting at square one because I want to use the lessons I've learned from past patterns. I think what may have happened with Candi's pattern was that it was written by her, then edited for the book, then sent to Knitty Gritty for them to put online (and I WHOLE HEARTEDLY AGREE, why not give FULL SPACE to internet patterns!)
In the course of this it seems that some stuff may have been left off / translated oddly. I'm still kind of scratching my head over YF.
And will all those increases, it would be nice to find out how many sts you're supposed to have at the end of each row. I mean, it's not like it's written in multiple sizes!
Okay, enough venting. Back to my hate mail. Time to smack MYSELF over the head with my book...
Posted by: Annie at September 19, 2005 12:06 PM
Has anyone else noticed how many typos we're all making in comments for this post? Hmmmmm.
Posted by: Annie at September 19, 2005 12:08 PM
You get so many posts I am not sure if someone suggested this, but stuff a bunch of catnip in there and sew it up an you'll have a swell cat toy.
Posted by: Ingrid Clark Zavadoski at September 19, 2005 12:23 PM
hear, hear! I totally agree that patterns should be written for the knitter with the knitting degrees and the dumb ass knitter like me. . . otherwise, add disclaimer "this bootie for the educated in knitting and other yarn arts, at least to the level of PhD, others, get lost."
Posted by: sedie at September 19, 2005 12:27 PM
I am LMAO!!!! I looked at the pattern and got pissed because they don't have a row 10! And then that Hopalong Cassidy thing, what the hell? I was laughing and in danger of being caught out during a meeting.
Posted by: LeAnne at September 19, 2005 01:17 PM
I have a bootie phobia. I think I thought a bootie should be an easy project (or two), after all... they are so small. That could be why I have TWO Franken-booties from two different patterns in my knitting bag just as a reminder to stay away from booties for awhile. And a squatty sock I made for my son that turned out to be too small. (I like the catnip suggestion, but it seems like a waste of Italian sock wool!)
Posted by: Kristine at September 19, 2005 02:09 PM
Dearest purl - one of the problems of pattern writers is that they know exactly what they are writing. And it wouldn't occur to them that this is not clear to others who are not inside their heads.When they have others test the pattern, they also are probably at the skill of the designer and don't encounter problems. People of whatever skill level should be the one's to "test" patterns to see if that is truly correct. Hang in, and give it another try, later, possibly after a little vinotherapy.
Posted by: Robby at September 19, 2005 06:59 PM
Don't feel bad, I'm a total remedial knitter too. I've been throwing a sorta-pseudo short row sock heel against the wall for a month. Sometimes I just try to "work through it," but we all know that that just means that my heel will look like a cow patty.
Posted by: Zarah at September 19, 2005 08:03 PM
I find it to be quite a coincedence that you are having trouble with your "booty" so close to International Talk Like A Pirate Day.
Posted by: shari at September 20, 2005 08:11 AM
Why don't you take the evil booty and fill it with catnip and get Bob stoned with it? Fun for all.
Posted by: Silvia at September 20, 2005 09:11 AM
I understood your pattern, but am having issues with my first sweater pattern out of SnB Nation.
DBO2?? What is that? The pattern says that you drop a stitch pick up the resulting ladder and knit into the back and front of the ladder and then bind off the first stitch and then the second.
So...I knit a swatch (love you swatch!) but it doesn't look right...
In other words...I feel your pain.
Posted by: taral at September 20, 2005 10:47 AM
This is why I crochet...
Posted by: faith at September 20, 2005 11:56 AM
Thanks so much, I am planning on making these for my new little grandbaby coming in April. S/He won't be laughed out of California wearing them, will s/he? (Hey, it's northern CA)
Posted by: Jane at September 20, 2005 05:52 PM
I agree that the abbreviations for knitting patterns would be better if they were 100% standardized. I think on this pattern they did clarify the abbreviations. I have knit these twice and found they were great. The first time it's kind of strange because what you're doing doesn't seem to make sense (hard to visualize), but if you follow the pattern it comes together. They also have in progress pictures, which helped me a lot. I can understand frustration, but I'm sure the second time will be better!
Posted by: Heather at September 23, 2005 10:05 AM
Arline, Being a knitter, I think you'll enjoy these comments about a particular bootie pattern. Have a nice afternoon. Bertie
Posted by: Bertie Ulkins at October 24, 2005 12:15 PM
Ah, but Aunt Purl, its not the poor pattern writer. Pity the poor person. ITS THOSE BASTARDS AT MICROSOFT AGAIN!!!! Yes, its a little known fact that ALL stress in normal, everyday life can be traced back to Bill Gates, and his evil empire. Yes! YES!
In this case, she found, as I did, that it is nearly impossible to get that %#$@%&()(^%% program to JUST DO A SIMPLE FREAKING NUMBERED LIST!!!
Really, think about it...
Posted by: Patti at November 24, 2005 06:19 AM








